You’re only human, with Trevor Dale
There’s no escaping the fact that you’re human. Humans make mistakes.
Within the Financial Planning profession, human errors can lead to costs and complaints.
But what happens when you screw up in the cockpit of a 747, or in an operating theatre, scalpel in hand?
My guest today is Trevor Dale, a specialist in Human Factors.
Trevor has experience of human factors training going back to 1990, when he was part of the team that introduced the subject to British Airways as a method of reducing pilot error. He retired as a Training Captain flying Boeing 747’s in 2005.
Trevor began working in Human Factors in healthcare in 2002 with paediatric cardiac surgery and now continues to do so across the entire spectrum from surgery, ITU, anaesthesia to mental health.
This is a conversation with so many insights for Financial Planners. Listen on to gain a better understanding of what it means to be human, and how to identify and mitigate the human factors that can result in mistakes.
Here’s Trevor Dale, managing director of Atrainability, in season two, episode three of the Financial Planner Marketing Playbook.
This is the largely unedited transcript of our conversation, so apologies for any typos or weird spellings!
Martin: [00:01:20] So here’s Trevor Dale, managing director of Atrainability in season two, episode three of the Financial Planner Marketing Playbook.
Trevor, perhaps by way of introduction, you could just tell us a bit about yourself and a bit about your background and all the issue do now.
Trevor: [00:01:37] Okay, thanks Martin. Well, what I do is I’ve always done is try to help people understand how they make mistakes as a way of not making them and therefore being safe.[00:01:48] And my original background was as a pilot with British Airways and a training captain, and specialty in teaching people to [00:02:00] behave or pilots and flight crew to behave in a way that enhances safety rather than damages it. And a lot of that is about understanding how you make mistakes. And from that working to how not to, uh, having started with the aviation world. [00:02:16] Uh, in 2002, we got involved with Great Ormond Street Hospital and started helping surgical teams and, and other health care teams. And that’s predominantly what we do. But actually it’s applicable to any critical team in any sort of business where failure or error would. Cost. I suppose ultimately in healthcare and in aviation, it costs you lives as well as money. [00:02:40] Uh, but anywhere else it can cost you money.
Martin: [00:02:43] Uh, I think I first came across this subject when I read Black Box Thinking by Matthew Syed, which obviously drew those parallels between healthcare and aviation. There’s a big cultural difference when it comes to safety in both sectors. I think it’s fair to say,
Trevor: [00:02:57] yeah. Yes there is. It’s one of [00:03:00] those things when you learn to fly, and some of you may have done that pretty much. The first thing they tell you is you will make mistakes and we’re going to try to train you in a way that you don’t make a mistake, which kills you and other people. Whereas. In healthcare.[00:03:13] Certainly, historically they’ve been told they mustn’t make mistakes and it’s a completely different mindset. And having said that, the other side of it is that being human, therefore I make mistakes, is no excuse for accepting sort of mediocrity. But what it should be is a motivation to thinking, okay, that that’s not great. [00:03:34] How can I be safer? How can I be better? We’re all still gonna make mistakes. I mean. Do it on a minute by minute basis, unfortunately. But, um, but at least I can normally work out how I’ve done it and I, and I know essentially how not to,
Martin: [00:03:49] is there an issue of scale then? Because if you make a mistake as a commercial airline pilot, you know, two, 300 people are dead.[00:03:55] Possibly more if you make a mistake as a surgeon, [00:04:00] possibly it’s just the person on the table that’s affected is, is that one of the reasons why safety is so ingrained in aviation? Or am I missing missing the bigger picture though?
Trevor: [00:04:07] I, I, there’s a great tendency in across health care, um, I think to sort of shrug shoulders to say just one of those things and these things happen.[00:04:19] And in aviation we just don’t accept that. Because you can generally work out, you know, planes don’t often crash. They do sometimes, but don’t often crash purely for technical reasons. And of course, as Black Box Thinking says it all, Matthew Syed’s book, the book I wish I’d written, dammit, is, um, you know, but we’ve got the black box evidence that we know what people said and what they did. [00:04:42] And I bet if you had such a thing in other areas, not just healthcare, but anywhere, and you actually analyzed what people were doing in the run up. To something going wrong, you probably find it was avoidable and that’s for me, that’s the big word is avoidable. So if something was [00:05:00] avoidable, how could you then next time avoid it [00:05:04] You know, and, and a lot of people talk about this, you know, lessons will be learned or lessons have been learned. There’s actually, in most professions, there’s not a great deal of evidence that lessons have been learned and changes have been made in aviation. We have to cause we crashed planes. No one’s going to want to fly with us. [00:05:21] You know, it’s kind of a major imperative. People are scared to death enough about, pardon the pun, about flying without making it worse for them. In fact, it’s, it’s. If you look at the six Sigma figures, it’s by far the safest way to travel. Probably safer than me walking back home from here, which is all of what, 400 meters or something, you know?
Martin: [00:05:42] and so it’s one of those irrational fears, I guess. And yeah, which is interesting because all the headlines seem to be not about air crashes because there’s relatively few major crashes these days, but about hospital failings, about scandals in NHS Trusts, yet we don’t then become really selective about [00:06:00] which hospital we go and visit.[00:06:01] If we have an emergency, we’re straight off to the nearest nearest A&E.
Trevor: [00:06:05] Well, if you have an emergency, yeah, you’re absolutely right. But, um, if you’re having. Elective surgery, let’s say that you do get a choice of where you go, and sometimes it’s for financial reasons, which are very appropriate, and the context in which we’re talking.[00:06:19] So some people threaten the other day heading off to France to have a hip replacement at a while. We’re still within the balance of what’s left of the EU, I suppose. You know, it’s an awful lot cheaper. To go and have it done in France. So you can do that. And some people, of course, do a look up. How safe is their consultant? [00:06:37] So if you’re having surgery, you can look it up, uh, with pretty much most specialties of what their safety record is, has its own downside in that you end up with doctors and other healthcare professionals potentially. Practicing defensive medicine, which is, well, that case is too risky. I don’t want to take it on because it will make my stats look bad. [00:07:00] So you know, we have to be realistic about these things. It’s, it’s more about, you’re right about the irrational fear. A lot of people are irrationally scared of, of getting into an aircraft, partly because they’re not in control. Maybe. Yup. Same goes when you go into a hospital, you’re at somebody else’s mercy, if you like. [00:07:19] This has multiple effects. So one is the, you know, the cost to the taxpayer of compensation. And if there’s any lawyers out there, you know, paying the lawyers for, for the litigation costs and all the rest of it, and the figures are in there. Billions per year in the NHS, in England alone. And of course, the same is replicated worldwide. [00:07:41] And it’s, you know, for my money, you don’t pay compensation for something which couldn’t have been avoided. So almost by definition, maybe I’m being simplistic, but it’s about . You know, something which could be saved.
Martin: [00:07:53] Yeah. No, absolutely. Well, what does your day to day job look like then when you’re working with these critical teams, typically within the healthcare [00:08:00] profession and also within other sectors too?[00:08:02] What, what do you do with them?
Trevor: [00:08:05] Well, we tend to do trying to do a trading needs analysis. So recently I’ve spent the several days and a man, a maternity unit, which is facing. Issues. I’m not going to say where, obviously, and um, and just observing the way they behave and talking to the teams about the problems that they face.[00:08:24] And they’re, uh, typically a lot of hierarchy issues. In fact, I’ve just come off the phone from talking to a, uh, a board member at a hospital, which is in the press in, in a bit of trouble. Again, I’m not going to say which one, but they’ve got problems around junior staff escalating concerns and being listened to. [00:08:43] Mm. And so there’s a lot around how you escalate, how, how you raise your concerns. So you know about assertiveness without aggression. Uh, cause there are techniques, but there’s also about how to build the confidence in people that they [00:09:00] won’t accept. Being bullied. And it’s not about stamping your feet and shouting and screaming. [00:09:04] It’s just, there are techniques around having difficult, critical conversations with people and you just, you know, part of it is about the confidence to say, I’m sorry, I’m not going to be a victim anymore. It sounds terribly easy. Obviously it’s much harder. So whilst we do a lot of classroom courses plus three courses, don’t do it all. [00:09:25] You’ve got to translate it. From the theory, which I think you need to understand into practice. So we do a lot of in situ coaching and a lot of work as well around adhering to process and checklists and things like that. I think one of the things that healthcare and aviation has in common is that the. [00:09:44] They have the same biggest killer, which is probably complacency. It’s an interesting one too, to ask your listeners, how many of you are consider yourself an above average driver? And I think nationally they reckon, was it 78% people think they’re above average drivers where you and I are of course, [00:10:00] but. [00:10:00] Hang on a minute. The math doesn’t quite work like that. People say, you know, I’ve been doing this job for 30 years and I’ve not, you know, made a mistake. Now what was captain E E Smith, wasn’t it the captain of the Titanic? You know, famous last words. Never seen an accident. Never seen him. Blah, blah, blah. [00:10:16] The next thing is .
Martin: [00:10:19] There’s plenty of parallels. I think we can draw there between those issues and what seemed within the financial planning profession, complacency and the belief that we’re above average financial planners is one of them. Something I often hear from financial planners is, well, I’ve never had a client complaint in my 2030 40 year career, therefore I must be doing something right, and that’s, complacency isn’t service.[00:10:39] Yeah. That’s a, that’s potentially a big issue.
Trevor: [00:10:41] Yeah. Well, I mean, I would argue success does not come about, if you’ll, pardon the pun, again, by accident or by no accident, depending on how you look at it. So one of the things we believe in is, is this concept of being consciously competent. And somebody who’s consciously competent in my book is someone who knows what right looks like, and they can kind[00:11:00] of self debrief so that if you have a good day, you can go. [00:11:03] Now today was really good. What did I do today that, that made that go well? I know I. Did this, did that, took care to do the other. And equally they can self debrief if you like when they’ve had a day that was less than ideal. And then kinda why have I, Oh, I know. Because I was worried about my mum being taken into a care home or, you know, all my kids just failed an exam or you know, and my other half isn’t speaking to me, you know, whatever it is. [00:11:30] And a lot of stuff is when people got personal stresses and strains going on and some people are in denial that. Home life, for instance, will have, will affect their professional life. You’d start doing a root cause analysis in the aftermath of some critical incident. You often find people, actually, their mind is not totally on the job because they’ve got, we call it a stress bucket. [00:11:56] You know, their, their buckets full up with money, worries, [00:12:00] relationship worries, family worries, and then they’re working with someone that. Actually, they’d rather not work with in an environment which is less than ideal, and they don’t make sure they’re properly hydrated, which means their brain isn’t functioning right and they haven’t had something to eat lately, so their blood sugar level may have gone down. [00:12:19] So they’re getting hangry. Get daddy, daddy, da.
Martin: [00:12:22] Yeah, I can, I can identify with. They’re getting hungry. I’ve happened to be on a regular basis. So something else you mentioned, Trevor, was about the ability to speak up, I guess, and, and not be subject to bullying behavior from senior people. Um, I know something you’ve told me about before was in know in the airline industry, some of the captains insisted on being called captain.[00:12:41] And having that sort of real hierarchy in place. We see it within financial services, you know, financial advisors in some companies are seen as, you know, the top of the pile administrators. Back office support staff, power planners and researchers aren’t treated with the level of respect they should be. [00:12:57] And it’s very often those front line staff, [00:13:00] not the financial planner, but the support staff who are the first to capture mistakes. But if they can’t speak up, that mistake can be allowed to, you know, get out into the wild and cause real issues.
Trevor: [00:13:09] Sure. I mean, if they think that they opened their mouth and it’s going to be a career limiting move, then a, yeah.[00:13:15] You know, why? Why would I point out that I’m. You know, such and such a mistake is about to happen. If I’m going to get shouted out, balled at abused or, or ignored. And there’s that old thing about people don’t leave a job. They leave a manager. So you know, for those of you out there, if you’ve got a high staff turnover and things like that, you might want to start looking in the mirror and think. [00:13:39] Hang on a minute. Am I actually part of the problem here? A lot of people find that very difficult to do, especially in a confidence based profession. So I think finding financial planning, cause I’m at my great age, I’ve had a few years of financial planning advice from various different people and I’m, I’m lucky to have it. [00:13:59] Someone, I’ve got a [00:14:00] very good relationship with, uh, now, but a guy in the past I was with who I thought it was a friend plus, she didn’t listen and he didn’t look after us. And when it came to having a, a significant pot to invest, which I did at one point, he wondered why I didn’t give it to him. I said, well, you’ve done such a rubbish job and you haven’t really listened to me. [00:14:21] But, uh, he was really surprised. He had, he had no idea. And, um. You know, there you go. Very nice guy on the outside. But actually there’s a thing called active listening, which you’re probably aware of, which we, you and I are doing it with each other now. Some people just don’t get active listening because their brain is already thinking about where they want to be or what they want. [00:14:44] They’re not actually listening to the . The person on the other end and that that is a typical skill that we teach and something that people need to respond to. I think
Martin: [00:14:54] active listening for me as a financial planning professional got easier with the more practice I’d had [00:15:00] with more confidence I had. I think when you’re first in the profession and you’re worried about asking the right questions and not making mistakes around the technical answers, you’ll give into questions the clients ask.[00:15:11] It’s much, much harder to be in the moment to think, you know, am I okay. Truly engaging in that conversation, or am I planning ahead? So the next question, I’m going to ask the next page on the fact find, you know, what we’re doing next. So I get that.
Trevor: [00:15:23] Well, I, you know, for the, for some of the, your listeners who work for major companies, and maybe some of the ones who haven’t.[00:15:31] Possibly have used video and role play in their training and their including their experience. But for those of you who haven’t, when you see yourself for the first time on video, and especially if you’re role playing an interview, let’s say, and you look at a new health, some are perhaps help you to analyze it. [00:15:48] You know where we arise looking and what were you actually thinking and hello, you don’t look interested. And that guy just gave you what we call a hook. You know what I’m really interested in [00:16:00] is, I dunno, green investments with a low risk, you know? And if you miss something like that as a financial planner, then probably most of you, I’m telling you something you’ve known for sure. [00:16:11] Donkey’s years here, but you know, for anyone who’s new in the profession, it’s those sorts of things that the hooks are selling hooks, which is the same in a training situation. When you say to someone like Martin, you know, how did you feel when today, when, and you might come back and say, well, I was feeling okay until something happened. [00:16:30] And you go, Oh, really? How did that make you feel? That’s one of those sorts of learning hooks that, that as a trainer, we would try to. Log into. So, so in a, it take an operating theater scenario, we might say to a nurse, you know, did you notice that they were about to do the wrong implant, let’s say? Or something like that? [00:16:50] Well, yes, I did actually. I was beginning to be a bit concerned about it. Okay. And, uh, okay. And how were you feeling? Well, I was feeling a bit nervous. Okay. And, uh, did you say [00:17:00] anything? Uh, no. And why was. But, you know, rather than going back to the nurse, let’s say, and saying, why was that? You might go to one of the consultants or senior nurses or sisters and say, you know, were you aware of how your colleague was feeling? [00:17:18] And, um, you know, there’s a lot of work around team dynamics and, um, it’s, the problem is if you keep trying to get the. The jr to tell you what’s wrong. They’re not comfortable and they they, cause that would, if they did, it would be a career limiting statement. So you’ve got to come at it from a more, I don’t know, sophisticated level.
Martin: [00:17:39] a lot of this has to come from the top, or at least from managers who are involved in the day to day things. You’ve told me before about the difference between culture and climate. So I think that’s very relevant here. Discussion for the financial planning sector and for teams within financial planning firms.
Trevor: [00:17:55] And any. Where else? You’re absolutely right. You know, and I often say to people, can you affect the [00:18:00] culture? And they go, Oh yeah, yes, of course I can. You know, I actually, well, hang on a minute. Let’s just discuss what, what culture really means. People use this word all the time. Culture is about the way things are done when no one’s looking.[00:18:11] Culture is about. Quite a deep level of thing about do you encourage your, your colleagues and particularly or junior members of staff to take part in learning about how the system could be improved? In other words, are they, are their opinions, uh, respected? Are they listened to? Are they acted on? And if they’re not acted on, do you give them feedback? [00:18:31] And that, that also all that sort of stuff. It’s about, are you were learning or a blame culture essentially. And actually for people at the bottom and. Probably in the middle. It’s not easy for them to affect that. Now your board level, people will probably say, well, yes, we, we make the culture here. We, we stipulate, okay, you’ll say what it is. [00:18:52] But the people who actually make the culture are probably the senior managers because they’re the ones who enact what the board say they [00:19:00] want. But for everyone else, the people sort of middle management downwards, mostly they affect the climate and the climate is, you know, is this a happy place to work, you know, to use. [00:19:10] Do you smile when you walk in the do, do you compose yourself and smile before you walk in the door? Or do you walk in moaning about the weather, the traffic, and whether your team lost last night or, or whatever that, you know, that’s climate and people I think get confused between climate and culture. [00:19:26] Climate, we can all affect, you know, do you look people in the eye? Do you shake their hand, do you say, you know, so how are you today Martin? Rarely, how are you? You know? And, and it’s, it’s, it’s about really caring about people and, um, and supporting across that. A lot of that is what we can all affect. I would say that’s climate.
Martin: [00:19:47] Going back to the, the implications of being human and making some of these errors and having these issues. It’s like, I guess within financial services it tends to be a financial consequence. Whereas within [00:20:00] aviation, within healthcare, it’s both. Yeah, human consequence and a financial consequence. So is, do, do you think that because it’s limited to financial impacts, it’s maybe something we’re less willing to pick up.[00:20:12] And we certainly in the past where the banks have had huge amounts complaints and mis-selling um, but it doesn’t seem to be a willingness to change culture to, to make real lasting change. .
Trevor: [00:20:23] Well, you’d have thought Nick Leeson would have had some effect when you, when, uh, when he bust bearings Bray, but bank, and he’s not the only guy of course, or other people have been involved in multimillion pound problems like that.[00:20:34] But, but I think, I think there’s a further issue here in that a lot of professions now are taking on board issues around mental health. And so while on the face of it, there is. A of maybe just a financial casualty, if you like. There is also a people casualty and the awareness of problems around mental health is rising to the surface. [00:20:59] Um, [00:21:00] you’d know better than I do, whether it’s in financial planning and those sorts of things, but you know, if you’re not being successful and you’ve got a lot of pressures on you, that’s going to have. Some serious damage from a stress point of view, which can lead to mental health issues. So I th I think it goes beyond that. [00:21:16] I mean, you know, if one of your colleagues, one of your team jumped in front of a train or something or took a drug overdose, I’m sorry listeners. Cause that may be something which is. Actually close or happened to some of you. But what I’m trying to say is, you know, I think this stuff is really serious. [00:21:32] It is much more than purely financial, and maybe it’s been seen in that light if, if the problems haven’t been addressed, but this whole subject, which is. A lot of it. It focuses on personal, individual stress, and can help provide solutions to stressful situations and people under high stress conditions, which could lead to personal tragedies as well. [00:21:58] I mean, nobody wants. [00:22:00] On their conscience as well. The fact that one of their friends has been in dire straights or one of their colleagues has been in dire straits and they didn’t realize before we started, we were talking a lot about this subject called situation awareness and you know, in a pure financial planning. [00:22:15] Context situation awareness would be about, you know, what is your client actually wanting in terms of risk and, um, you know, areas that they’re happy to invest in, for instance, and, and what their ultimate goals are at the end of the day. You know, they’ve providing for . Private education or their old age or mum and dad in a care home or whatever. [00:22:37] So there’s that. But there’s also situation awareness. Well, I guess in terms of investment areas, so you know, look at the funds that have gone recently. If, if, if. But not the, say any company names that I hear
Martin: [00:22:52] may be trading on slightly dangerous ground if we start naming names.
Trevor: [00:22:55] But let’s say that the ones that have been in a, in the financial press a lot lately [00:23:00] and there you’ve had people like, I mean, there’s a classic case of complacency.[00:23:04] So a real sky high flying investment manager or two who have headed off with loads of people’s money into particular farmers, which are. Become more esoteric as time has gone on and now it’s all gone, crash, bang, wallop, and everyone is probably saying, you know, we should have seen that happening. Yeah. I mean that’s the same subject we’re talking about. [00:23:26] You can see it happening when you have the eyes to look. The warning signs with bearings were all there with Nick Gleason and the warning signs are there now with ’em or have been there now with the recent debacle over some funds, which of course a lot of people, a lot of money.
Martin: [00:23:43] I know within the healthcare profession, one, and it’s not a new development, but it’s something that helped them to avoid lots of mistakes, easily avoided, won’t stakes, was checklists and having those documented processes, having a clear way of doing things.[00:23:56] So it is, is that an important thing to have with within [00:24:00] any critical scene where mistakes can happen, to have processes, to have checklists.
Trevor: [00:24:03] Yeah. And of course it’s not just having them, but it’s adhering to them. And so the checklists need to be fit for purpose. For instance, you know, probably all notice a checklist in the most basic format is an aid to your memory to make sure you don’t forget something, that that obviously is crucial.[00:24:21] And certainly in an aircraft or in an operating theater, that’s absolutely, um, as it is. The other thing is when you’ve got people working together and maybe in teams that change, it’s a way of hopefully ensuring that your people are adhering to the company process. The process that the company has said, this is what we need to do to be safe as a company dealing with other people’s business and money and all the rest of it. [00:24:52] And it’s when people deviate from the standard practice. That often things go wrong because they think they know better. We’re [00:25:00] back to the complacency thing. I’ve been doing this job for 30 years and.
Martin: [00:25:04] And that’s always been the biggest challenge for me. Employing people within the financial planning business, which is you bring someone new in and they bring their way of doing things, how it was done at the old company.[00:25:13] Yeah. I’ve had a colleague in the past who probably four, five or six years with on a weekly basis, referred to how it was done are X, Y, Zed. Yeah. So regardless of how long she’d been in our culture, our way of doing things, there was always a reference back to the old way of doing things. Yeah. So why do people want to put their individual stamp on the way. [00:25:33] Things that on do you think?
Trevor: [00:25:35] Um, well, it’s a very natural human trait, I think, isn’t it? To, to want to put your own stamp on something. But there was a, an interesting thing that happened a few years back in a, in a major airline where. Each manager would come along and they would have made the checklist to put their stamp on it.[00:25:53] And what finally got him was when the company lawyer came along and said, so, who’s responsible for this checklist? And [00:26:00] this manager said, well, I am, of course, very proudly, you see? And he said, well, you do realize if anything goes wrong, the lawyers are going to come looking for you. and it was just sort of deep intake of breath. [00:26:12] And what happened is they went to us that actually the manufacturer’s version of the checklist, which is what most airlines do now, is most other, can’t say they all have, but an awful lot of them have gone away from their own personalized version too. What the original equipment manufacturer has said. [00:26:30] Now, obviously even financial planning that you’d know better than I would, how applicable that might be. But you do need to sense check these things. And more importantly, in many ways, you need to keep a, um, if you like an auditing I a standardization check on your staff to make sure they’re actually following the. [00:26:49] Process. And if they’re not following the process, is it because you’ve employed the wrong type of person who thinks they know better or is actually the process not [00:27:00] fit for purpose? And with their help, you might need to go back and say, okay, right, so we’ve, you know, the world has moved on. This doesn’t work anymore.
Martin: [00:27:08] That that’s actually a really good learning point for financial planning firms because if their way of doing things evolves over time, as they get new members of a team come in, they each have their own bits of input. It can quite easily deviate from rules and regulations. You know, we’re a heavily regulated industry sector profession still.[00:27:25] Um, so you’re having that regular sense check actually have we, have we over-engineered our way of doing things? Have we, have we started doing things in a way just because that’s how it was always done? Or is it the best way to do it for our client? Business.
Trevor: [00:27:39] Yes. I think that’s something you need to send check every now and again and hopefully people are like, we just saying just now, they sort of audit them and they standardize them.[00:27:48] I’m certainly in the airline business. Your, I don’t know whether people know this, but the pilots are assessed three times a year on their technical ability to fly them. Damn thing, but also to [00:28:00] work effectively in a team. I can’t say we’ve got rid of all of the, um, uh, difficult, interesting characters because we don’t want to clone people. [00:28:09] We still want individuals, but at the same time, we’ve, I think we’ve eradicated an awful lot of the more extreme, should we say egotistical. Behavior, unprofessional behavior that we used to have. And I think this, you know, keeping an eye on your staff and say, well, you know, they’re a real character. Yeah, okay. [00:28:28] There might be a real character and they might be good in a social context, or maybe they’re a disaster in a social context, but you know, there is more to it than just. Getting the day job done, if you like.
Martin: [00:28:39] And that’s particularly challenging where you’ve got a high performer who’s often a big earner as well.[00:28:44] Yeah. If the business becomes reliant on an individual who is a bit of a character, and it does have lots of floors and it’s probably a risk to have a business, but they’re responsible for a high level of income coming into their business. It’s a tough one to marry up, but I guess you have the same issue within healthcare where [00:29:00] you’ve got, you know, pivotal members of staff, key members of staff that the business would, the organization would be effectively lost without, but people are wary of them and they can see those, those risk factors there. [00:29:10] They can see their behavior isn’t, isn’t what would be expected.
Trevor: [00:29:13] But I think the original version of Topcon is a great, great illustration. You know, when, when Maverick does his, a Tom cruise does his, a fly by and the aim, he gets marched into the, um. A captain on the ship office and he says, son, your ego is right and checks your body can’t cash.[00:29:31] And I think that’s a really good point for an awful lot of us. You know, hang on a minute, you know, is your ego getting a bit too carried away here? So you need confidence, but you need confidence without arrogance. And it’s when you. Slip over and I liken it to walking a tight rope. So, you know, you need to walk on this sort of slippery, tight rope of, of maintaining confidence without arrogance. [00:29:54] And I think to do that as a fundamental, whether you’re in healthcare or aviation, you’re [00:30:00] in, um, financial planning, wherever you are. It’s the way you maintain confidence is by understanding how you’ve made a mistake rather than beating yourself up. Because most of us, you know, we’ve made a mistake. We’ve got a voice in our head. [00:30:13] A mind used to be like a well known Scottish chef, you know, awful lot of expletives and general bad language to myself. And then, you know, you talk to your friends and they say, Oh, how could you be so stupid? And maybe your other half at home says, how could you be so stupid? And it’s all this idea that it’s stupid. [00:30:31] Human fallibility is part of being human. Like I said some while ago now, that’s no excuse for accepting sub optimal performance or mediocrity, what it should be as a spur to understanding how you’ve made it and therefore coming to terms going, okay, I’ve made a mistake. Let’s work out how I’ve done it. [00:30:50] How can I not do it again? But the arrogant ones, so those ones who can’t accept it, so they blame someone else. You let me down, Martin, you did this. You didn’t tell me why. You know, [00:31:00] and you. I get this behavior from a few. And for me they’re that they’re that dangerous.
Martin: [00:31:05] So the ones that you want to watch out for, the ones that are happy to accept, they’ve made a mistake and change their behavior, you know, bit of a Mia copra and, and move on and do things differently.[00:31:14] It’s fine in a way. Cause you say, we’re humans, we all make mistakes. But you’re right. It’s the ones that,
Trevor: [00:31:18] but you need support. Well, yes, because this again, links back to the, the mental health issues we were talking about, you know, P people sometimes, you know, arrogance, you could almost argue is a. It’s a problem on that line in that, you know, people build a wall around themselves where they can’t accept their own humanity, if you like.[00:31:37] And so they kind of throw it around at other people, and often you find people who behave like that underneath it all, uh, uh, uh, suffering. From a, I don’t know, imposter syndrome, you know, where, where underneath it all, they don’t believe they can really do it. And it all manifests as some bizarre, aggressive behavior quite [00:32:00] often. [00:32:00] Uh, and an inability to listen to anyone trying to tell them that the truth and sometimes looking in the mirror is really quite difficult. And asking friends and colleagues for. Honest feedback without recrimination and it can be painful, but probably going to end up with a more stable outcome at the end of the day.
Martin: [00:32:24] Trevor, thank you for joining us on the Financial Planner Marketing Playbook podcast today. It’s been a pleasure to chat to you. As always, we’ll make sure in our show notes for this episode, we put links to the website, to your social media. Channels, et cetera. So our listeners can find out more about you, and I’m sure if anyone wants to get in touch, you’d be delighted to spend some time in financial planning practices doing similar works in the work you do within the healthcare profession and helping people make fewer mistakes.
Trevor: [00:32:47] I will indeed. It would be a really interesting challenge. Thank you very much, Martin. It’s been a great pleasure.